Is the name the same?

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Lorna Allison
Posts: 389
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 11:02 pm
Location: Perthshire

Is the name the same?

Post by Lorna Allison » Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:26 am

Hi

Anyone come across Euphemia and Elspeth being interchangeable? All the children are reg. born to "Elspeth" but on her son's death cert (Stat. Rec) she is named as Euphemia, by her grandson. There are no children being born to a Euphemia with the correct husband, in the whole of Scotland.

They tended to use the Scots naming pattern and one of her sons named his second daughter Euphemia.

No OPR birth for Euphemia or Elspeth. No OPR death either.

Could "Effie" be short for Elspeth as well as Euphemia and the family have presumed she was a Euphemia?

Grateful for any advice.

Lorna
Researching:

PAUL: Lanarkshire;
TORRANCE: Lanarkshire
CROSGROVE: Ayrshire, Glasgow
ALLISON: Glasgow
PRICE: Monmouthshire
CURZON: Staffs, Monmouthshire
TAIT, HUME, MIDDLEMAS,: Roxburghshire
PRINGLE: Glasgow, Central Belt, Edinburgh

eilthireach
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 11:41 pm
Location: Arizona (ex-Edinburgh)

Post by eilthireach » Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:28 am

Elspeth and Euphemia (Effie) are two quite different names and are not "interchangeable". However, someone who is registered as Elspeth might very well be known as Effie either "just because" or because her parents, after registering the birth or after the christening, decided that, actually, they preferred the name Euphemia and never bothered to go back and have the record altered. I have come across several examples of this (not with these names specifically).
In your case, it is quite possible that the grandson did not actually know the grandmother's name (perhaps he had never even met her) or was Euphemia (Effie) the greatgrandmother's name or a name from somewhere else in the family?

Lorna Allison
Posts: 389
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 11:02 pm
Location: Perthshire

Post by Lorna Allison » Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:38 am

Hello Eilthireach

Thank you for your helpful info. I want to give you a reasoned response and have been working on this but time now 2.30 am and brain rather curdled. I shall send detail tomorrow.

Thanks again

Lorna
Researching:

PAUL: Lanarkshire;
TORRANCE: Lanarkshire
CROSGROVE: Ayrshire, Glasgow
ALLISON: Glasgow
PRICE: Monmouthshire
CURZON: Staffs, Monmouthshire
TAIT, HUME, MIDDLEMAS,: Roxburghshire
PRINGLE: Glasgow, Central Belt, Edinburgh

Lorna Allison
Posts: 389
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 11:02 pm
Location: Perthshire

Post by Lorna Allison » Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:14 pm

Hello Eilthireach

I think you may well be right and that this Elspeth Tait, despite that name being on all OPR records for her children, may just have preferred to be a Euph*. I have a Euphan (bapt. name) who married Charles Hastie and appears on the 1841 Census (called Euphemia) with him in Kelso, no-one else in house, (no recorded births). She is def. in my tree and an Oz relative told me that he had "discovered" a possible Elspeth who slotted into the family next to Euphan but no other details. My gggrandfather and his brother who are also Euphan's siblings do not appear on OPRs either.

Suddenly wondering if Elspeth died after last birth in 1822 and sister Euphan/Euphemia who was childless helped raise the children?

Elspeth's son Thomas married Tait family connection hence my wish to sort out relationship, if there is one.

I give below my researches but now wondering if just having to think this through has solved the problem. Do you think so?

*******************

A John BELL & Elspeth TAIT have 9 children reg. on OPR as born Sprouston, Ednam & Makerstoun – all Roxburghshire - between 1805 & 1822, inc. a Thomas born 1810 which exactly matches with a death, on Stat record, aged 70 in 1880 EXCEPT his son John says Thomas’ mother was Euphemia (as per Thomas’ second daughter) and I can find no record of a John Bell marrying a Euphemia or a family with those two as parents or an illegitimate birth to a Euph*

“OPR Record for Ednam, Rox: 1810 - John BELL, Hind in Highridgehall and Elspeth TAIT his Spouse had a son on 15 Aug. and Baptized 2nd Sept. named Thomas.”
……………………..

I find a Thomas Bell, aged 40, Farm Steward, b. Ednam, in 1851 at Langshaw, Melrose with wife & family incl. Euphemia 2nd daughter and John, 1st son.
…………………….

Thomas BELL, Farmer, Married to Margaret COCKBURN; d. 22 Sep 1880 at Whin, Ladhope; 70; Parents: John BELL, Farm Steward (Dec) & Euphemia ms TAIT (dec); Typhoid Fever; reg. by John BELL, Son, at Ladhope on 24 Sep 1880
……………..

The only death of an Elspeth BELL nee TAIT I can find is one who died in Coldingham in 1869, aged 90. Her husband was a John Bell but son John says his father was a “hedger” and I find it hard to believe that, given son Thomas was farming at Ladhope in 1880 and their father had been hind/steward in the same area, that this could be the correct death.

There is a John Bell, age 45, Ag. Lab, in 1841 at Wideopen Farm, Yetholm with family incl. an Elspeth. I believe this could be son of the above Elspeth who died in Coldingham.
…………………………….

A John Bell (38) in Melrose, 1851, with a wife called Euphemia, both come from Lanarkshire and he is a handloom weaver. This Euphemia died in 1869 in Ladhope, aged 60 and her maiden name was Braidwood. Have discounted this couple.
………………………………

Conclusion: I think John Bell and wife Elspeth/Euphemia are dead by 1841.
……………………..

No likely Euph* Bell deaths 1810-1854/1855-1900 except weaver’s wife in Ladhope
No likely Elspeth Bell deaths 1810-1854/1855-1900
…………………………..

If you have read this far, thanks and apologies for being so long winded.

Welcome feed back.

Regards

Lorna
Researching:

PAUL: Lanarkshire;
TORRANCE: Lanarkshire
CROSGROVE: Ayrshire, Glasgow
ALLISON: Glasgow
PRICE: Monmouthshire
CURZON: Staffs, Monmouthshire
TAIT, HUME, MIDDLEMAS,: Roxburghshire
PRINGLE: Glasgow, Central Belt, Edinburgh

KEITH TAIT
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:24 pm

Re: Is the name the same?

Post by KEITH TAIT » Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:45 pm

I have a Euphemia Tait in my family daughter of my Great Great Grandfather she was born 7/5/1847 at Coldstream Berwick she married Peter Middlemiss on 10/1/1873 a Police Constable at Whitsome Berwick I have not traced her any further but she may befound on the site internet called scotlandspeople.
Hope this helps
Keith Tait

Lorna Allison
Posts: 389
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 11:02 pm
Location: Perthshire

Re: Is the name the same?

Post by Lorna Allison » Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:27 pm

Thanks Keith but not my line I'm afraid.

Regards

Lorna
Researching:

PAUL: Lanarkshire;
TORRANCE: Lanarkshire
CROSGROVE: Ayrshire, Glasgow
ALLISON: Glasgow
PRICE: Monmouthshire
CURZON: Staffs, Monmouthshire
TAIT, HUME, MIDDLEMAS,: Roxburghshire
PRINGLE: Glasgow, Central Belt, Edinburgh

SarahND
Site Admin
Posts: 5619
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:47 am
Location: France

Re: Is the name the same?

Post by SarahND » Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:48 am

Hello Keith and welcome to Talking Scot! Although she is no relation to Lorna, I had a wee look for Euphemia after her marriage-- without much luck. In 1881 Peter is in Galashiels, Selkirk, a boarder in the house of William Trotter, a farm steward. Peter died in 1886 in Galashiels. No sign of Euphemia in 1881, nor any death on Scotlands People... Maybe that's why you didn't end up tracing her further! :lol:

All the best,
Sarah

FisherFolk
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2022 9:18 pm

Re: Is the name the same?

Post by FisherFolk » Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:52 pm

Hi Lorna,
I don't know whether you'll ever see this, but I thought I'd add to the thread.
I have some people in my line (well a Gt Gt Gt Gt Aunt!) who was called Elspeth Fisher on all documents, except her marriage entry at Errol, in 1820 where she was written as "Euphemia Fisher". The subsequent baptismal entries in the parish for her children were all children of Alexander Robertson and Elspeth Fisher. Maybe the minister just mis-heard what their names were for the marriage - they being illiterate wouldn't have know to correct him.

18/11/1820 ROBERTSON, ALEXANDER (Old Parish Registers Marriages 351/ 70 447 Errol) Page 447 of 539 © Crown copyright. National Records of Scotland. Image was generated at 21 September 2022 21:30 Transcribed by Alistair Pitt
1820.
Robertson & Fisher.
Alexander Robertson of the parish of Abernethy, & Euphemia Fisher of this parish, having been contracted Nov 18th were proclaimed Nov 19th
____________________
One of several examples of their children's baptisms from Errol.
ROBERTSON: Isabella, daughter of Alexander Robertson, Ploughman in Arncothis? & Elspeth Fisher, his spouse, was born Nov 5th and baptized Nov 11th 1821.

I thought you might be interested in this. Thanks for the original post.
Alistair

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