Help with an elusive Fife Ancestor!

[MorrisFife]

Hello everyone, I have been researching my husband's Scottish family tree for a few years now, but have only recently come across this great website!
There is one ancestor that I simply cannot get a hold of, I have tried everything (I think), so now I am hoping that maybe someone here can nudge me in the right direction...

On the 9th of June, 1855, John Robertson married Jessie Johnston (she's the one I am trying to trace) in Carnbee, Fife. The good news is that the 1855 records are very detailed, and according to them, Jessie is 21 years old (i.e. born 1833/34), born in North Leith, her parents being Henry Johston (Plasterer, deceased) and her mother Margaret Notman (at least that's what it looks like), still alive in North Leith.

I can find Jessie and John in all the Censi, where her birthplace is always given as Leith. But can I find her birth record anywhere? NO!!!! And neither can I find siblings, or her parents' marriage, or the death of either parent.
I have trawled SP (for the whole of Scotland), the IGI for both Leith North and South, Ancestry, FamilySearch, RootsWeb...

So maybe anyone has any suggestions? Any help would be GREATLY appreciated.

Thank you!
Suzanne

[LesleyB]

Hi Suzanne
and welcome to

The 1855 marriage, in the first column, which church is mentioned? Is it "according to the forms of the Church of Scotland/the Established Church" or is a different church mentioned there? If not CoS that may explain why you are having difficulties finding events pre-1855.

Just guessing...Could Margaret's surname be Norman? Difficult to tell without seeing the original.

Best wishes
Lesley

[LesleyB]

Could this be the family when Jessie (Jean) was young in the Freecen 1841 census? Maybe Margaret, given as the mother in 1855 is a second marriage, so not a genetic mother?
http://www.freecen.org.uk/

I can find Jessie and John in all the Censi,

If you have already found likely candidates in the 1841, then ignore my ramblings! If so, can you tell us where she is in 1841 & 51? In 51 she is likley to be at home with her parents, perhaps?

Piece: SCT1841/683 Place: Dalkeith -Midlothian Enumeration District: 7
Civil Parish: Dalkeith Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: -
Folio: 7 Page: 17
Address: High Street
JOHNSTON Henry M 30 Plaisterer Journeyman Midlothian
JOHNSTON Alison F 27 Midlothian
JOHNSTON Jean F 6 Midlothian
JOHNSTON Elisabeth F 2 Midlothian

[MorrisFife]

Hi Lesley,

thank you for your reply! I checked out the Henry Johnston & family that you pasted into your message, and I don't think that is the one - they married in 1834 and Alison died in 1884, so well after Jessie Johnston got married.
Yes, the marriage record for John Robertson & Jessie Johnston does say Church of Scotland...and her mother's maiden name definitely looks like Notman.

Thank you for your help anyway, I hadn't come across the FreeCen website before!

Suzanne

[LesleyB]

So can you tell us where Jessie is in 1841 and in 1851? And who is in the household with her?

I can find Jessie and John in all the Censi, where her birthplace is always given as Leith. But can I find her birth record anywhere? NO!!!! And neither can I find siblings, or her parents' marriage, or the death of either parent.

If you can give us the names and ages of the siblings and any other info you have, that may help us to help you.

Best wishes
Lesley

[LesleyB]

Have you considered that Jessie's parents may not have been married?

Just looking at the 1855 marriage, there is an inconsistant pattern with the way the same registrar has recorded parent names for the four persons on the page. The usual expected pattern for parents would be:

John Smith, / occupation / and whether deceased
Mary Smith m.s. Brown / and whether deceased

But this only occurs in one of the four sets of parents. I'm unclear at this stage if this is deliberate, reflecting the true state of things, or just the registrar being forgetful given this is the first year of SR. Given it was the month of June though, you'd think he might have established a pattern.

[nelmit]

There is column on an 1855 marriage entry for the bride and groom's parish of birth and if registered. The exact date of birth and place will be given if it was registered. What does it say in that column for Jessie?

What were the witnesses names and what was Jessie's occupation?

Regards,
Annette

[MorrisFife]

Hi Lesley and Annette,

thank you for your replies!
Ok, let me answer your questions. When I said that I found Jessie and John in all the censi, I meant the ones after their marriage, i.e. from 1861 onwards. I can't find anything about Jessie and her family in the 1841 and 1851 ones.

Looking at the register entry for their marriage in June 1855, I can't really see the discrepancy between how the parents of the two marriages registered on that page are entered. For the other marriage (not John and Jessie's) it says "William Bridie (deceased) and Elizabeth Balfour; George Rodger and Margaret Rodger, maiden name Neil". But you are right, for this other marriage the date and place of birth of the bride and groom are given, whereas for John and Jessie the register states only their birth parish...

Comparing between the two marriages on the pages, the one thing that leaps out is that while both marriages took place on the 9th of June, it was signed and dated by the registrar only on the 11th of June (while the other marriage was signed and dated 9th of June)

Let me give you all the information that is on the register:

When, where and how married:
"At Carnbee, on the Ninth day of June 1855, we were married according to the Rites and Ceremonies of the Established Church of Scotland by the minister of the Parish of Carnbee"

Signature of the Parties:
"(Sigt.) John Roberston
(Sigt.) Jessie Johnston"

Present Residence:
"Hurlemakin"
This is given for both, it is a tiny hamlet north of Carnbee.

Usual Residence:
John: "Hurlemakin"
Jessie: "Elie"

Age:
John: "27 Years"
Jessie: "21 Years"

Profession:
John: "Farm Servant"
Jessie: "Servant"

Condition:
John: "Bachelor"
Jessie: "Spinster"

Birthplace, and when and where registered:
John: "Born at (...) Parish of Cameron and registered in said parish" (I have found that entry)
Jessie: "Born at N.Leith and registered in said Parish" (CAN'T FIND THIS ONE!!!!!)

Parent's Names and Profession:
John: "William Robertson (deceased) and Agnes Finlay (deceased), Farmer"
Jessie: "Henry Johnstone (deceased) and Margt. Notman, alive in N.Leith, Plasterer"

Signature of Officiating Minister and Witnesses:
"(Sigt.) Anstruther Taylor, Minister of Carnbee"
"(Sigt.) Thomas Finlay, Witness
(Sigt.) James Robertson, Witness" (so both from the groom's side)

When and where registered, signature of registrar:
"1855 June 11th at Carnbee, James Anderson, Registrar"

Would there be an entry in the Parish Register as well?
Well, this is all there is. I had a look at the page preceding John and Jessie's entry, and of the two marriages there, again only one gives the date and place of birth, the other one only the place.

I've spent endless credits on SP over the last years trying to find Jessie's birth, both as Johnston and Notman. No luck!

Hope you can pick up a clue somewhere here....thank you again for your help.

Regards
Suzanne

[LesleyB]

Hi Suzanne

Birthplace, and when and where registered:
John: "Born at (...) Parish of Cameron and registered in said parish" (I have found that entry)

...having recently dowloaded a copy of this, it looks to me that John was born at Unthank. Unthank is in Cameron parish, as stated.

It looks as if they moved about a fair bit if the following children on IGI are all to the same couple...the dates dertainly seem to look reasonable. Moving around an area in this fashion when involved in agricultural work is not at all unusual:

WILLIAM ROBERTSON Birth: 22 SEP 1856 Elie, Fife (this one is a submission - the rest are all extracts)
AGNES ROBERTSON Birth: 07 AUG 1858 Carnbee, Fife
JOHN ROBERTSON Birth: 23 AUG 1860 Kilconquhar, Fife
ROBERT ROBERTSON Birth: 13 FEB 1863 Dairsie, Fife
DAVID ROBERTSON Birth: 19 AUG 1866 Monimail, Fife
JAMES ROBERTSON Birth: 23 MAR 1871 Dunino, Fife

( - note there appear to be 5 boys and not one of them is a Henry...I'm still leaning towards there having been no marriage)

Best wishes
Lesley

[speleobat2]

Hi all,

Going with the idea that Margaret Notman wasn't married, I did a couple of searches for deaths for Margaret Notman from 1855 to 1918 with her birth date being 10 years plus or minus for 1799 and 1809 (figuring Jessie's birth at 1834 and Margaret age being 16 at the youngest and 45 at the oldest) and no county or parish specified. There is only one Margaret Notman result who is single at death age 66 in Tranent, East Lothian in 1858. I'm taking the surnames in the Other Surnames column to be maiden names with Notman being a married name in the other results.

I think this is the Margaret Notman on the 1851 census who was born in Tranent, East Lothian in 1791, was living in Meadow Mill, East Lothian and had two sons with surnames different than hers. I'm guessing they were illegitimate so maybe Jessie was too?

There are 6 Margaret Notmans who marry between 1855 and 1869. It might be a stretch, but I have at least one relative who was in her sixties when she married. I haven't checked any of these on SP. I'm over my budget again this month!

Just some possibilites!

Carol