Last Name

[marilyn morning]

On 5 September 1878, Elizabeth Morning 3 yrs.old passed away, her parents are listed as Matthew & Maggie m.s. Dickson Morning. Elizabeth's d. record is from SP. Then on 21 December 1877 after Banns, Matthew Morning married Margaret Dickson, marriage record from SP. I'm a bit confused. If Elizabeth was illegitimate and say she was born a" Dickson" would Matthew & Maggie have been able to list her last name as Morning on her death record?

Marilyn

[WilmaM]

Somebody will correct me if I'm wrong

Subsequent Marriage of the biological parents legitimises an illegitimate birth.

[marilyn morning]

Wonka2

Are you telling me that Matthew & Margaret were planning to get married, when said child, Elizabeth passed on almost 4 months before the blessed event?

[DavidWW]

Somebody will correct me if I'm wrong

Subsequent Marriage of the biological parents legitimises an illegitimate birth.

Only as long as they were free to marry at the time of birth of the wee wain, otherwise said wee wain is known in legal terms in Scotland as an "adulterine bastard".

And just to make the point clear, there was no requirement for the parents to ask for an RCE annotation on the birth register of the said wee wain that the parents had subsequently married, thereby legitimating the wee wain. They had that right, and any subsequent extract of the wee wain's birth record would then not show it as illegitimate, altho' anyone viewing the original birth register entry at NRH would still see the original entry, but along with the legitimation RCE annotation.

In other words, in the eyes of Scottish law, unlike in England, such subsequent marriage automatically legitimated the birth of the said wee wain, with the above condition, regardless of any action on the part of the parents.

Up until 2005, the only other possibility of having the original birth re-registered, thereby deleting the illegitimate reference, is for the wee wain, as an adult, to request that, on producing proof of the subsequent marriage of his Pa and Ma. That means that a wean of the wee wain couldn't request such a re-registration.......... if you see what I mean. This may be corrected in the current draft Bill.


Another point of Scottish law in the same area is that unless there is a declaration to the contrary by the mother - which will be recorded on the birth register entry - the presumption is that the husband at the time of the birth is the father................

Davie

See this DG , see the information you get

[Alcluith]

The parent were married almost a year before little Elizabeth died? but if the father was named on the birth certificate then she may have been registered as Elizabeth Morning. but that doesn't matter she would be listed as Elizabeth Morning on the death certificate.

Extract from a Birth certificate

"Catherine Davidson
Illegitimate
Note:Child legitimised by subsequent marriage
of parents. See reg. Dec 24 1885"

Catherine was born 19 Sept 1885, registered the 3rd October 1885, the parents married 18th Nov 1885 and the note in the register added 24 December 1885.

I presume it would be up to the parents to go back to the registrar to request the change.

[marilyn morning]

Davie, Thanks for clearing that up, now I understand.
Drew,
Check my post again, because the child was 3 years old when she passed 3 months before the marriage of her parents.

Regards
Marilyn

[Alcluith]

On 5 September 1878, Elizabeth Morning 3 yrs.old passed away, her parents are listed as Matthew & Maggie m.s. Dickson Morning. Elizabeth's d. record is from SP. Then on 21 December 1877 after Banns, Matthew Morning married Margaret Dickson, marriage record from SP. I'm a bit confused. If Elizabeth was illegitimate and say she was born a" Dickson" would Matthew & Maggie have been able to list her last name as Morning on her death record?

Marilyn

05 Sept 1878 little Elizabeth died
21 Dec 1877 after bans Matthew & Margeret married

Did you mean 21 Dec 1878?

[marilyn morning]

Hello Drew

I need to tweak the marriage date of Matthew & Margaret (Dickson)Morning m. 31 (not 21) December 1877. Recorded as 1878 Marriages in the District of Johnstone In the County of Renfrew.
No birth record for this Elizabeth Morning on SP.

Marilyn

[DavidWW]

On 5 September 1878, Elizabeth Morning 3 yrs.old passed away, her parents are listed as Matthew & Maggie m.s. Dickson Morning. Elizabeth's d. record is from SP. Then on 21 December 1877 after Banns, Matthew Morning married Margaret Dickson, marriage record from SP. I'm a bit confused. If Elizabeth was illegitimate and say she was born a" Dickson" would Matthew & Maggie have been able to list her last name as Morning on her death record?

Marilyn

Nothing to prevent the sequence of events that you describe happening. There was no requirement when registering a death to produce the marriage extract (certificate) of the parents, or the birth extract of the infant.
Likelihood is that Matthew and Maggie were living together prior to being married. They, or Maggie, had a previous child, Elizabeth, who died on 5th September 1878. For whatever reason, the couple decided to have a regular marriage, on 31st December 1878. In other words, there's nothing to say that they weren't already irregularly married before this. If that was the case then they should have obtained a Sheriff's Warrant and presented that to the registrar to enable the marriage to be entered in the Marriage Register but that process took time, required sworn statements from themsleves, and, if available, witnesses ................. Maybe simpler and quicker just to ignore the fact of a previous irregular marruage

I'm not convinced that Elizabeth's father was Matthew........

Can't recall if anyone has previously tracked them down in 1881 ........

Dwelling: 19 Mc Dowall St
Census Place: Abbey, Renfrew, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0203566 GRO Ref Volume 559-3 EnumDist 8 Page 10
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
Matthew MANNING M 25 M Johnstone, Renfrew, Scotland
Rel: Head
Occ: Labour At Oil Works
Maggie MANNING M 23 F Kilbirnie, Ayr, Scotland
Rel: Wife
Janet MANNING 1 F Johnstone, Renfrew, Scotland
Rel: Daur
Christina M. BINNIE M 35 F Johnstone, Renfrew, Scotland
Rel: Boarder
Occ: Factory Worker
John BINNIE 5 M Johnstone, Renfrew, Scotland
Rel: Boarder
Agnes BINNIE 3 F Johnstone, Renfrew, Scotland
Rel: Boarder
Jeanie BINNIE 1 F Ireland
Rel: Boarder

Davie

[marilyn morning]

I'm not conviced Matthew is the father ither?

Marilyn