Are they the same person? .....

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DavidWW
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Post by DavidWW » Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:03 pm

Pandabean wrote:Whats special about an 1855 birth except that it was when the registrations became compulsory?

I did find those births on the IGI. Thanks Andy. :)
In 1855 and that year only you also gets the ages and places of birth of the parents, plus the number of previous children in the format - 1 boy living 1 deceased, 2 girls living 1 deceased, - for example. In a small number of cases, the registrar can be shown to have misinterpreted the instructions and included the child who was the subject of the 1855 registration in the number of children.

So valuable that it's a standard technique for a child known to have been born around 1855 to look for a sibling born in 1855.......

David

Pandabean
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Post by Pandabean » Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:29 pm

Thanks David.

I found William in the 1871 census aged 47 and as a boarder in Ayshire and on his 2nd marriage cert he is 47. The confusing one is the death cert its out by 7 years.

Russell
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Post by Russell » Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:44 pm

Hi Andy

for a death certificate to be out by 7 years is not unusual. I don't think birthdays then had the same significance as they have now.
A husband who was not numerate might not have a clue what his wife's age really was. One of their children registering the death might think their parent was older than they actually were. I can't remember when they started to issue actual paper birth certificates but its a relatively recent innovation.
Don't set too much store by the ages given and if it was a neighbour who registered the death you can almost discount it.

Russell
Working on: Oman, Brock, Miller/Millar, in Caithness.
Roan/Rowan, Hastings, Sharp, Lapraik in Ayr & Kirkcudbrightshire.
Johnston, Reside, Lyle all over the place !
McGilvray(spelt 26 different ways)
Watson, Morton, Anderson, Tawse, in Kilrenny

deano
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Adamson

Post by deano » Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:28 pm

Hello Andy,

May I suggest that if you look at the death age of 56 years, take that from year of death and its almost bang on for his birth year, the age on the census I gave you of 42 years, in 1861, again is about correct, the ages that are out are the 1871, census you have, and his marriage age.

Regards,
Jonn.

DavidWW
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Post by DavidWW » Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:03 pm

Scottish death certificates, or to be correct, 1855 and later death register entries, are problematic in terms of the information that they contain ..............

Birth register entries involve information provided most often by a parent so that the information is most likely to be correct, although fathers are notorious for getting the date of the marriage wrong, and a date, even place, of marriage that varies from birth registration to registration for a set of parents can be symptomatic of an irregular marriage that never ended up in the statutory register of marriages - "Haw hen, jist when did we git merrit by that declaration thingy, but?" - i.e. no [marriage] "lines" to refer back to that allow a check of the date and place .............

For marriage register entries the information is supplied by the couple marrying so is most likely to be correct, but errors are known to have occurred quite often for a number of reasons, including the inability to check what was written in the marriage schedule due to illiteracy; and the transcription process from the marriage schedule to the marriage register entry.

It's also not uncommon to find that the information on whether or not the parents were deceased at the time of the marriage is incorrect, both false positives and false negatives, sometimes, I suspect, due to the question being misunderstood. Whatever, this info is demonstrably more robust than the similar info re the fathers on an English marriage register entry, since Scottish registrars were specifically tasked with obtaining this information.

And so to Scottish death register entries :!: ........ on the one side so much more valuable than the English equivalent, - with the name[s] of the spouse[s] including the maiden name[s] in the case of a male death; the names of both parents including the maiden name of the mother and any other previous or subsequent surnames if she had previously been married or had remarried; and the name of the informant (quite often a married surname if the informant was a married daughter); and their relationship to the deceased, and address if resident at an address other than that at which the death took place.

The other side of the coin is that this depended on the information provided by the informant.

In general the closer the relationship, the more accurate the information.

That written, however, I've seen situations where the information supplied by a son in terms of his grandparent was completely wrong and/or didn't supply information on other marriages of the deceased.

On the other hand I've seen death register entries where the information supplied by the governor of a poorhouse was immaculate in terms of the parents, including other surnames of the mother, and multiple marriages of the deceased, - this obviously goes back to the information originally supplied to the poor law inspector ........

In general, however, the highest accuracy of information is most likely to have been supplied by a sibling, followed by the spouse, followed by children, followed by nieces/nephews/uncles/aunts, followed by in-law relations (maybe not always correct in terms of the position in this hierarchy!), followed by more distant relations, followed by close friends (the term "intimate" is often used, but the meaning is different from today's meaning :!: :shock: ), then neighbour, and finally one of a number of public officials.

But please, please, understand that this listing should only ever be taken as an outline guide. As noted previously, at any point in that list there can be much worse or better information in terms of accuracy than could most often expected.

And then we come to age of the deceased, or the marrying couple, for that matter !!

In a number of my relevant lectures I will pick out someone in the audience, with the typical dialogue as follows.....

Me: "How old are you?"

Audience Member: "60" [or whatever]

Me: "OK, but how do you know that?"

AM: "From my birth certificate, of course!"

Me: "OK, so let's imagine you were born before statutory/civil records were kept, - how would you know then?"

AM: [Typically starts to see where I'm heading] "Well I guess that I'd rely on what I'd been told, or maybe a baptismal record....."

Me: "But if the person registering your death hasn't access to any such information, then what would they report as your age?".

AM: ........ in general then concedes that the age reported on a death register entry is open to question, most especially if, as is often the case, the age reported conflicts with robust information from other reliable sources.


And then there's another factor which can greatly influence the age that appears on a death register entry ...........

This is the age that the deceased has previously represented to others that they are .......

The fairer sex are not unknown to want to be known as younger than they are, - there are many census records that show that someone miraculously ages by less, even much less, than 10 years between the decennial censuses, - and such folk are not always female !: :!:

On the other side of the coin, given the greater regard paid to those of a guid age, it's far from unknown for someone to have exaggerated their age in terms of inflating the figure ............... so that an informant not connected to the family got it way wrong on the high side !!


Lots of food for thought, I'd have hoped

Orraverybest

David

Russell
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Post by Russell » Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:39 pm

David to continue your theme on a personal level.

My father - lovely man that he was - would have been/was, totally unable to remember the date of his marriage. In consequence first my older brother , then my older sister, then me, all became illegitimate as the years went by.
Fortunately we all had our original birth certificates which proved otherwise.
If he had been asked for information the entry would have been totally wrong. :oops: :oops: :oops:

Russell
Working on: Oman, Brock, Miller/Millar, in Caithness.
Roan/Rowan, Hastings, Sharp, Lapraik in Ayr & Kirkcudbrightshire.
Johnston, Reside, Lyle all over the place !
McGilvray(spelt 26 different ways)
Watson, Morton, Anderson, Tawse, in Kilrenny

DavidWW
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Post by DavidWW » Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:33 pm

Russell wrote:David to continue your theme on a personal level.

My father - lovely man that he was - would have been/was, totally unable to remember the date of his marriage. In consequence first my older brother , then my older sister, then me, all became illegitimate as the years went by.
Fortunately we all had our original birth certificates which proved otherwise.
If he had been asked for information the entry would have been totally wrong. :oops: :oops: :oops:

Russell
QED :!: :shock:

David

emanday
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Post by emanday » Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:55 pm

In our case, Russell, when asked for his age, it was my MOTHER who kept making my brother illegitimate and my father who kept correcting her :shock:

Why she insisted in always adding a year to his age is beyond us, as she never did it with my sister and I.

There was a bit of a family joke that the stress during labour of making sure he was born BEFORE midnight on the 31st March caused her to put a block on the event. As it was he avoided being an "April Fool" by mere minutes :lol:
[b]Mary[/b]
A cat leaves pawprints on your heart
McDonald or MacDonald (some couldn't make up their mind!), Bonner, Crichton, McKillop, Campbell, Cameron, Gitrig (+other spellings), Clark, Sloan, Stewart, McCutcheon, Ireland (the surname)

Pandabean
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Post by Pandabean » Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:22 am

Thanks David. That was very insightful.

I guess the same would go with mothers maiden names. In the fact that if the mother died in the childs youth they would not know the name or they would have a guess at it?

I can see that forgetting when you were married could be a problem when it comes to remembering anniversaries.

DavidWW
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Post by DavidWW » Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:20 pm

Pandabean wrote:Thanks David. That was very insightful.

I guess the same would go with mothers maiden names. In the fact that if the mother died in the childs youth they would not know the name or they would have a guess at it?

.....snipped..............
Indeed, and especially difficult if there was no-one else to ask or no documents that could provide the info.

David