Have the mysteries gone to the grave?..../.

[Anne H]

Hi Jack…looks like you have been very, very busy and I thank you for all your help

I note that Helen was unmarried…wonder why she reverted back to her maiden name! I must have gotten the census date wrong…she apparently didn’t marry Andrew Tully till later. It’s definitely the same family since her marriage to Andrew Tully showed she lived at Inglis’ Land and Andrew lived at Steel Street…one mystery solved. Thank you =D>

You’ll never guess...I believe I’ve found Andrew Tully’s death certificate…actually, I’ve had it for a couple of years and didn’t quite connect it till now (how bright am I? ). His name on the DC is written as Anthony Tully, railway Labourer married to Ann O’Donnell, died 1 May 1866 at 40, but I’m sure it should be Andrew married to Helen McDonald because when I looked again at the address it was 10 Martin’s Land, Merryston…that address is on other certificates for Helen and family too. She was probably over whelmed with grief and I think maybe the Registrar didn’t hear her properly…poor woman, a widow again! Also, on her son John Harty’s (formerly John McDonald) MC his mother is down as Ellen O’Donnell…so I’m almost sure it’s the right ones…thanks to you Jack for making me look again!

I think I have to start looking again for another marriage for Helen to James Hearty since John McDonald’s name changed at some point to Harty (although there’s no Correction Entry on his birth certificate), otherwise, if there wasn’t a marriage, how would John have gotten the name Harty?

Thanks also for finding Thomas and family in Motherwell…I didn’t have that

No, I certainly don’t mind you putting Marie’s family in…I’ve actually made a note of this information also…just in case I come across anything that might be useful to Marie or myself in the future.

Once again, many, many, thanks Jack.

Regards,
AnneH

[Jack]

Hi Anne,

A married or widowed lady using her maiden name happened fairly often on censuses - mainly on the earlier ones. But of course Scottish women never "lose" their maiden name - even after marriage!

But what is a wee bit odd is that according to the IGI Andrew TULLY & Helen McDONALD married on 26 MAR 1861 - the census was the night of 7 APR 1861.... I presume the original 1861 MC does say March?
--
I dare say you've got this 1881 census; seems John McDONALD was being known as HARTY by then. Maybe it made things less complicated with everyone having the same surname. The 1871 census should say what names the family were using in that year.
Always the chance that James HARTY & Helen never did marry, but John had been told who his father actually was - and that's why he has James as his father on his MC.
Mother Ellen's age of 40 in 1881 is a wee bit out in comparison with 30 in 1861 - but original page should say if this isn't just a transcription error.
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1881 Census Place: Old Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
Dwelling: No 17 Stone Row
Source: FHL Film 0203699 GRO Ref Volume 652-2 EnumDist 7 Page 26
Thomas HARTY M 25 M Coatbridge, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Head Occ: Puddler In Iron
Isabelia HARTY M 30 F Ireland Rel: Wife
Patrick HARTY 4 M Coatbridge, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Son
Thomas HARTY 3 M Coatbridge, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Son
John HARTY 1 M Coatbridge, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Son
Ellen HARTY W 40 F Ireland Rel: Mother Occ: Housekeeper
John HARTY 11 M Coatbridge, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Brother Occ: Scholar
--
Glad you've found what looks like Andrew TULLY's 1866 DC, but not surprised you were led astray with it! Helen was Irish, and maybe still spoke with an accent that the registrar wasn't too good at picking up on. Did Ellen sign her own name as informant?
I've got cousins removed that gave their mother's surname variously as Donald & O'Donnell - and for her forename some of the children said Agnes, others said Hannah. Luckily their father's name and occupation was always the same, and the addresses on the children's MCs also confirmed she was the same person.
----
Jack

[Anne H]

Hi Jack,

Yes, the original MC says 26 Mar 1861 and registered 28 Mar 1861 at Old Monkland, so it’s really odd that Helen used her maiden name on the 1861 Census…another mystery gone to the grave!

I think you’re right about John McDonald being told who his father was and James Harty and Helen never did marry…I rechecked her DC and she was known as Ellen Tully, widow of (1) Patrick Hartie; (2) Andrew Tully, I should have checked that.

You’re probably right about keeping everyone with the same surname. Helen herself went back to being called Harty on many of the records, although on the 1871 Census we have Ellen McDonald or Tully, head, W, 40, Thomas Harty, son, 14, Ann Tully, Daur, 9 John McDonald, son, 1, and a lodger, Jane Stirling…SP also has Ellen as being 40.

On seeing the name “Isabelia” on the 1881 Census again I remembered reading a post on TS where someone mentioned Isabella and Elizabeth were sometimes interchanged and it hit me that I had a 1901 Census that I’d put aside with Thomas and Elizabeth Harty and family…well, another one I should have looked at more closely since it turned out to be my great grandfather and family (Helen’s son)…so thanks for mentioning this Census and thanks to whomever posted the info on names changing.

As to Ellen signing her own name on Andrew Tully’s DC…afraid not, her name was written as Ann Tully, widow and she signed as always with an X.

Once again, Jack, I’m very grateful for all the information you’ve given me.

Regards,
AnneH

[Jack]

Hi Anne,

Possibly Helen as unmarried and using her maiden name of McDonald in 1861 was because the household census schedule was filled in just before her marriage - though i suppose she should have been as a widow.
And maybe Andrew isn't around because he's working elsewhere building railways.

Helen apparently couldn't write, and possibly couldn't read too well (if at all) either when she signed with an X on Andrew Tulley's DC, so she might not have noticed all the mistakes. Or as you say - rather distraught, and no wonder - losing 2 hubbies within 8yrs.

But glad to hear you've again found your G-GF Thomas!

Jack

[sarah dippity]

Coatbridge Irish Communities
In the late 19th century, major Irish enclaves were to be found close to many Iron foundries, such as Brown Square at Langloan, Merryston Square, Steel St(name changed to Lang St), and in later years, the Slap - up, off Dundyvan Rd, Irish Land at Coatdyke and Paddy's land which bordered Portland St and Kildonan St.

[sarah dippity]

the lamont mode llodging was in buchanan st my dad remebers eating there after swimming

[Anne H]

Thanks sarah dippity, every bit of info makes the picture a bit clearer.

Regards,
Anne H

[sarah dippity]

652/02 004/00 019 gros no for 1961 census. had a look and the children thomas and mary are living with Helen McDonald at bank st (langSt)

[Anne H]

You mean "1861" Yes, I have all the census information, thanks.

Regards,
Anne