1851 census

[nelmit]

Hi Annette

I don't think that's her. I'm sure she was born either Brown or Ferguson.

On the 1864 marriage cert for John Brown and Marg Ferguson the wedding registered and taking place in Glasgow - John's usual residence is Bathgate West Lothian and Margaret's is Dunoon - suggesting the didnt normally reside in Glasgow?

Oh I'm pretty sure you've got the right Margaret Ferguson, it's the young Margaret Gillan/Brown I'm talking about.

Regards,
Annette

[JustJean]

I'm here to back Annette's hunch but sadly I didn't get any further on it last night. I searched for the possible illegitimate birth of a Margaret Gil* but didn't find one. Well actually I searched for the birth of any Margaret Gil* that had a mother named J* but still didn't find one that made me feel all warm and fuzzy

The age stated on the 1881 cesnus for this Margaret is 19. The age in the SP indexes however is 14 and the age on Ancestry is 14. The orginal 1881 page surely looks like a 14 but might be a 19 with the top missing. The place of birth is clearly written like Kirkcosh which is no help whatsoever!!!

So far I'm not finding a young Margaret Gillan or Ferguson or Brown in 1871. The fact that there isn't one residing with John and Margaret though sure makes me think that she wasn't raised by them and was only the daughter of John.

I've a strong feeling that the gal Annette found on the 1881 and the gal who married Thos Carrick are one and the same. The MC details her occupation as a printfield worker and this 1881 girl is a printfield worker. That marriage occured in Partick some seven months after the 1881 census was taken in Abbey. The fact that Margaret stated in person at her marriage registration that her mother was Jane Gillan (dec'd) makes perfect sense that she was talking about her biological mother. Remember it's Thos Carrick widower that has given the information about the parents on Margaret's DC. He would have never known Margaret's real mother and might have just gone with the woman who was married to her real father.

This one is frustrating to be sure

Best wishes
Jean

[steiner]

Thanks Jean and Annette - I understand what you say.

However, a couple of points the husband was John Carrick not Thos. is that a slip of the keyboard?

John Beown is deceased on Margaret and John's wedding cert for 1881 - so who is the John Brown husband still living when Margaret Brown nee Ferguson died in 1901 9 1838 -1901)

What has Margaret 1838-1901 got to do with young Margaret ? - no relation or have I homed in on the wrong person

[speleobat2]

Hi all,

Part of the problem maybe that there are too many characters with the same names here. I just uploaded the marriage cert. for John Carrick and Margaret Brown who's mother was Jane Gillan. Note that John gives his parents as William and Margaret Carrick and that he lives at 60 Castlebank St, Partick.

http://talkingscot.com/gallery/displayi ... ?pos=-1857

Now here's the 1881 Census for John Carrick living at 60 Castlebank St. Partick with his parents-- William and Rebecca Carrick.

John Carrick
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1861
Relationship: Son
Father's Name: Wm
Mother's Name: Rebeca
Gender: Male
Where born: Lanarkshire, Glasgow
Registration Number: 646/2
Registration district: Partick
Civil parish: Partick
Town: Partick
County: Lanarkshire
Address: 60 Castlebank Street
Occupation: Riviter
ED: 5
Household schedule number: 72
Line: 13
Roll: cssct1881_257
Household Members: Name Age
Wm Carrick 48
Rebeca Carrick 46
John Carrick 20
Ellen Carrick 13
Wm Carrick 11
Anne Carrick 5


This John Carrick is a riviter on the census who marries a Margaret and goes on to become a boilermaker and have several children by 1891. There seem to be either many Johns and Margarets or mistakes made in the certificates and the census records!

Carol

gallery url added by marilyn

[nelmit]

Thanks Jean and Annette - I understand what you say.

However, a couple of points the husband was John Carrick not Thos. is that a slip of the keyboard?

A slip of the keyboard I would think.

John Beown is deceased on Margaret and John's wedding cert for 1881 - so who is the John Brown husband still living when Margaret Brown nee Ferguson died in 1901 9 1838 -1901)

Yes that's what I thought too. but......................

Hi Annette

It is rather strange. Unless of course the person registering the marriage made a mistake or simply didnt know.

There isnt really any other info the certificates. Margaret's address is given as 15 Grace Street, Partick that's in 1881 of course.

What has Margaret 1838-1901 got to do with young Margaret ? - no relation or have I homed in on the wrong person

Carol

Margaret Ferguson b 1838 married in 1864 and died in 1901. Marr and death certificates seen.

Margaret her daughter married in 1881 - marr certif seen and died in 1911 death cert also seen

I canny seem to find Margaret the daughter in either the 1871 or 1881 censuses at all, A mystery

Ok I'm confused now as I thought you were trying to find out more about this Margaret who married John Carrick.

Regards,
Annette

Hoping she's not confused the issue even more.

[JustJean]

Thanks Jean and Annette - I understand what you say.

However, a couple of points the husband was John Carrick not Thos. is that a slip of the keyboard?

John Beown is deceased on Margaret and John's wedding cert for 1881 - so who is the John Brown husband still living when Margaret Brown nee Ferguson died in 1901 9 1838 -1901)

What has Margaret 1838-1901 got to do with young Margaret ? - no relation or have I homed in on the wrong person

Sorry steiner

Most definitely an error there on my part. The marriage is between John and Margaret

1881 CARRICK JOHN BROWN MARGARET PARTICK GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 646/02 0271

I picked up Thos when I quickly scribbled notes at work when trying to make out the certificate....the writing is a bit faint...and then kept running with those scribbles instead of remembering the names I searched on. Funny thing when I first wrote the post I automatically entered John and then looked at my notes and said no way his name was Thos. Sigh....the things I can do to get me into trouble

As for what does the 1838 Margaret have to do with this Margaret who marries John Carrick? Well......the only connection I've seen so far is that when John Carrick registers his wife's death he states her parents were John Brown and Margaret Ferguson. Take that and do what you will with it. Those names do not match the parent names given on their MC. There is also no evidence of Margaret Ferguson and John Brown registering a child named Margaret and there is no evidence of her on the census with them. You said in your earlier postings that they had a daughter. What is your proof of this other than the DC made out by John Carrick giving those parent names???

It's possible there are more than one set of couples at work here but I don't have time today to study it further....will keep following this one!

Bes wishes
Jean

[steiner]

Thank you all for your efforts and time.

The 1881 census entry is definately the right and proper Carrick family.

I'm beginning to think that John's wife Margaret the daughter of Mr Brown and Jane Gillan may have been illegitimate - there is no evidence that her parents as mentioned on the marriage certificate were ever married.
Did you notice that on the Marriage certificate both parents are deceased?

Maybe I should try and look for death of a Jane Gillan between 1860 and 1881.

As you say Jean although Mr Carrick gave the Brown and Ferguson names on the death certificate - these could be wromg. I may therefore have picked the wromg couple married in 1864 as her parents.

Many thanks again to all of you - Carol, Jean and Annette

Andy

[speleobat2]

On Margaret's marriage cert. she gives her age as 23 which would have her being born in 1858. On the 1881 Census that I posted, her birth is given as about 1861.

Both of these would put her as born well before the the 1864 marriage of Margaret Ferguson #2 and John Brown.

Carol

[nelmit]

I'm beginning to think that John's wife Margaret the daughter of Mr Brown and Jane Gillan may have been illegitimate - there is no evidence that her parents as mentioned on the marriage certificate were ever married.
Did you notice that on the Marriage certificate both parents are deceased?

Maybe I should try and look for death of a Jane Gillan between 1860 and 1881.


Andy

I just assumed she was and that's why I was looking for a Margaret Gillan in 1881. When I saw that one in 1881 and she was a bleachfield worker I thought it may be her.

There is another road to try and that would be the poorhouse applications at The Mitchell. You never know your luck. I'll have a look next time I'm there but I don't know when that will be.

Regards,
Annette

[steiner]

A final point;

Who would have given the details on the 1881 Marr certificate to the registrar?

Wouldnt John Carrick have taken his marriage cert along when he registered Margaret's death in 1911 - or if not he must surely have known who his wif's mothe was?