Fish Family

[Pandabean]

I was wondering if I could get some help with a couple of queries on the Fish Family from Airth, Stirlingshire.

I have been going through the records I have on some family members to see if they appear on NAS. I found a possible match for one of John's sons, George Fish, three times he seems to have been convicted of a crime. I am not a 100% certain that it is my man but I was wondering if I e-mailed NAS they would be able to give me some more information on him. I cannot find many matches on SP for George Fish, actually only one on 1851 census and he is only a bairn.

Details of George Fish:
FISH George born 1 March 1817 to John Fish and Elizabeth Gilchrist, he married Hellen Mirk (Mark/Mink) in 1842 and he died in 1866, all the places were in Airth. He was a courier/carrier

JC26/1856/130 Trial papers relating to George Fish for the crime of theft and previous conviction. Tried at High Court, Stirling 22 Apr 1856

JC26/1850/297 Trial papers relating to George Fish for the crime of theft and previous conviction. Tried at High Court, Stirling 11 Apr 1850

JC26/1847/261 Trial papers relating to George Fish for the crime of theft and previous conviction. Tried at High Court, Stirling 8 Apr 1847

AD14/56/181 Precognition against George Fish for the crime of theft and previous conviction 1856

AD14/50/270 Precognition against George Fish for the crime of theft and previous conviction 1850

AD14/47/197 Precognition against George Fish for the crime of theft and previous conviction 1847



My second query is relating to George's father John Fish who was born around 1785 and he married Elizabeth Gilchrist in 1806. They had 5 children the latest was born in 1817 (George).

I am trying to look for his death at first I thought was before 1855 until I found his son's death certifcate which states that he is alive in 1866 but Elizabeth is not. So I do a search for John Fish and I find a death in 1868 in Airth. John's father is Thomas, this I know from a marriage OPR. The name of Johns father on the Death Cert is Thomas which makes sense.

Another piece of evidence is his occupation as a "Free Stone Trimmer" which kind of matches the death certificate of George as it mentions him as a Mason's Labourer.

John's mother is called Ann, which is also the name for two of his girls one born in 1808 and the other in 1813.

However he is married to a Jean Orr/Ann (see cert I have uploaded).

So my question is "is it likely to be my John Fish and he has remarried?"

http://talkingscot.com/gallery/displayi ... ?pos=-1429

Thanks,

[SarahND]

Hi Andy,

If I understand your post correctly, you have not found George in the censuses-- or did you mean that you have not found any other George Fishes? In case you're missing it, this looks like your George in 1861.

1861
Turnpike Road, Airth, Stirlingshire
George Fish, 44, Head, born Airth, Stirlingshire, Carrier
Helen Fish, 43, Wife, born Airth, Stirlingshire, Carrier's wife
George Fish, 22, Son, born Airth, Stirlingshire, House Carpenter (journeyman)
Elizabeth Fish, 15, Daughter, born Airth, Stirlingshire, Carrier's Daur
William Fish, 10, Son, born Airth, Stirlingshire, Scholar
Jemina Fish, 8, Daughter, born Airth, Stirlingshire, Scholar
Thomas Fish, 6, Son, born Airth, Stirlingshire, Scholar
Mary Anne Fish, 4, Daughter, born Airth, Stirlingshire, Scholar
Andrew Fish, 7 Mo, Son, born Airth, Stirlingshire
Mary Mirk, 48, Sister-in-law, born Airth, Stirlingshire, Domestic Servant

You could probably email NAS and ask if the George Fish in the trial papers was a carrier. It would seem that they could easily answer that for you.

All the best,
Sarah

[SarahND]

In 1851 they are indexed in Ancestry under "Fisk" and George has quite an interesting occupation that I'm having trouble interpreting

Red Row, Airth, Stirlingshire
George Fisk, 31, Head, born Airth P, Stirlingsh, Agricult Sahauxes
Helen Fisk, 30, Wife, born Airth P, Stirlingsh
George Fisk, 12, son, born Airth P, Stirlingsh, Scholar
Elizabeth Fisk, 6, Daughter, born Airth P, Stirlingsh, Scholar
John Fisk, 4, Son, born Airth P, Stirlingsh
William Fisk, 10 Mo, Son, born Airth P, Stirlingsh

At least he doesn't appear to be in prison... (unless that is what an Agricult Sahauxes is )
Regards,
Sarah

[SarahND]

For your second question:
I read that as "Free Stone Quarrier" except it looks like a 'T' rather than an 'F', but the cross mark has possibly faded.

Did your John have a son William (the informant on the death cert)?

In the IGI, John Fyshe married Jane Orr on 21 Nov 1823 in Airth

Since George is the last child born to John Fish and Elizabeth Gilchrist, it looks like his mother could have died between 1817 and 1823, if this is the same John.

This looks like the family of the John in the death cert, except that John's occupation is given as Ag Lab, which doesn't fit.

1861
Shore Road, Airth, Stirlingshire
John Fish, 76, Head, born Airth, Stirlingshire, Ag Lab
Jane Fish, 66, Wife, born Airth, Stirlingshire, Ag Lab's Wife
Catherine Fish, 28, Daughter, born Airth, Stirlingshire, Ag Lab
Robert Fish, 25, Son, born Airth, Stirlingshire, Teacher (elementary)

Here is that family in 1851-- Again an Ag Lab

1851
Shore of Airth, Airth, Stirlingshire
John Fish, 65, Head, born Airth, Stirlingsh, Ar Labourer
Jane Fish, 59, Wife, born Airth, Stirlingsh
Catharine Fish, 17, Daughter, born Airth, Stirlingsh, Maslin Sewer
Robert Fish, 15, Son, born Teame of Both Littles, Stirlingsh, Scholar
Mary Fish, 11, Daughter, born Airth, Stirlingsh, Scholar
Jane Fish, 9, Daughter, born Airth, Stirlingsh, Scholar

Aha! And here is your George, with that same family in 1841, so it looks like the death cert you found is your John And the William who signed the death cert is also there
The whole family are Ag Labs... maybe there were a lot of stones in the field? Not sure where that stone quarrying came in, but I don't see another John Fish with that occupation, so...

1841
Airth Shore, Airth, Stirlingshire
John Fish, 50, born Stirlingshire, Ag Labourer
Jean Fish, 40, born Stirlingshire, Ag Labourer
George Fish, 25, born Stirlingshire, Ag Labourer
William Fish, 17, born Stirlingshire, Ag Labourer
Agnes Fish, 10, born Stirlingshire, Ag Labourer
Catharine Fish, 6, born Stirlingshire, Ag Labourer
Robert Fish, 4, born Stirlingshire
Mary Fish, (no age given), born Stirlingshire

[Anne H]

Hi Andy,

I had a look in the MI's for you and found the following:

Airth Churchyard
139 (along street wall)
1853; Geo Fish & Helen Mirk

The 1853 doesn't necessarily mean that they both died on that date. I didn't see father John or anyone else listed.

Regards,
Anne H

[Pandabean]

Thank you very much Sarah. I wasn't expecting that much detail.

I never thought of looking for Fisk. I kind of forgot about using * as I havent been doing much research into the family for a month or so. But thanks to you I have carried on with the searching and I have got somewhere and managed to find another relative who was involved and killed during the Great War - Pte Charles Kemp Penn, whose Great Uncle married Margaret Fish. Believe it or not but his name had been on my computer all along as I had taken a photo of the War Memorial in Airth early this year. I only found it again when I thought to check for any Fish names on it.

As for the criminal convictiosn it is appearing less likely that it is George as when I looked at one the records with full details yesterday he appears to be from Falkirk rather than Airth. This has kind of got me doubting the records relate him.


I have looked at the 1851 census for George and his occupation is actually Agricult. Labourer.



Anne H
Thank you for that lookup. Much appreciated.
Is there by any chance any Penn's in the MIs?

Thanks,

[Pandabean]

I am now wondering if this is the George Fish these records are reffering to. He is in the 1861 Census

1861 FISH GEORGE M 22 FALKIRK LANDWARD /STIRLING 479/02 005/02 011

This would make this person 14 when he was first convicted.

[SarahND]

I wasn't expecting that much detail.

"Detail" is my middle name Or rather, my last name (SarahND = Sarah Needs Details ) Particularly, I needed the details of all possible census entries for John, in order to figure out if he could have been George's father.

As for the criminal convictiosn it is appearing less likely that it is George as when I looked at one the records with full details yesterday he appears to be from Falkirk rather than Airth. This has kind of got me doubting the records relate him.

There certainly doesn't appear to be any other George Fish in Stirlingshire in the right time frame. Note: I see you just found one! I was searching for someone 17 and older... will serve me right-- good find! But, there are a number of them in England who could have come up to Scotland and committed crimes, I guess.

I have looked at the 1851 census for George and his occupation is actually Agricult. Labourer.

That's a relief!

All the best,
Sarah

[SarahND]

Hi Andy,
The George Fish you found is exactly the same age and has the same birth place as your George Fish's son George... Oh dear. It looks like he was a servant in Falkirk as well as being enumerated with his parents in Airth. So he may be "yours" after all...
Regards,
Sarah

[Pandabean]

Now I am confused lol.

If that is the case then there are no other George Fish's in Stirlingshire apart from my relations in the 1851 census. But as you say the convicted George could have came up from England.

I am sure one of the conviction records said Falkirk however I cannot seem to get the records back up on NAS.

Hi Andy,
The George Fish you found is exactly the same age and has the same birth place as your George Fish's son George... Oh dear. It looks like he was a servant in Falkirk as well as being enumerated with his parents in Airth. So he may be "yours" after all...
Regards,
Sarah