Hit the wall, please help

[hamilton604]

Good day fellow Scots:
I've hit a wall with my searches and stuck I am.
Spent the bucks for census & bday searches with negative confirmations.
Details: Thomas Hamilton born 1844 born in Scotland, son to William Hamilton (weaver in Scotland as per Thomas's marriage cert). As you see limited info but enough to confirm and carry on hopefully due to specific bday of son.
Any ideas friends to locate William?
I'm in Canada so I'm limited to the net.
Regards

Christian Hamilton

[Falkyrn]

As you probably know Civil Registration did not start in Scotland until 1855. As your dates are before this we fall into the OPR territory where records are sometimes sparse if they exist at all.
The birth of Thomas in 1844 is also after one of the major splits in the Church of Scotland and if your family were part of the congregations which left their records could be part of the Free Church Records held at the National Records but which are not available online. (Sadly some churches retained hold of their own records rather than hand them to the Records Office so the NRS archives are not complete).

Do you know where in Scotland Thomas was born ? What about his mother any idea of her maiden name ?

for example the LDS have this Thomas

Name: Thomas Reid Hamilton
Gender: Male
Christening Date: May 1844
Christening Place: , ST. QUIVOX AND NEWTON, AYR, SCOTLAND
Birth Date: 01 May 1844
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: William Hamilton
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Flora Reid
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C11612-8
System Origin: Scotland-VR
GS Film number: 1041406
Reference ID: - 2:15GZGVL

[WilmaM]

A few more details of what you do know would help us.

You have his marriage cert you say - that'll be post 1855 , so can you give us his mother's names and when and where he was married, and who [obviously].
That way we can cut down the areas to search for censuses etc.
If his parent's were still alive at his marriage looking for their death cert can help boost you back another generation too.

FreeCen is a good [though incomplete as yet] free way to look at census records.
Sometimes grave stones give extra info, if you know when and where sometimes MI's are on-line or someone can look them up for you.

We love a good puzzling brick wall here

[hamilton604]

Thank you, yes. That was my best guess (Thomas Reid HAMILTON of William & Flora); however, I have not been able to confirm this.
Thomas moved to West Derby to work as a railway porter (1881 England census).
Marriage confirmed to Marrion SMITH in 1877 in Liverpool. No mothers names mentioned, only fathers:
William HAMILTON WEAVER, William SMITH Lace maker.
Both Thomas and Marion confirm being born in Scotland via census.
Best guess for Marion:
02/08/1848 SMITH MARION CRAIG
Parents: WILLIAM SMITH/MARY ROBB of GLASGOW CITY CITY/LANARK
with addresses apart to meet:
WILLIAM HAMILTON/FLORA REID from NEWTON ON AYR

I like the grave stone idea, people tend to add little details there if I could locate.
weird mystery though, My grandfather's name was Robert BARR Hamilton, and his father's name was also Robert BARR Hamilton (son of Thomas)
who's mothers maiden name was SMITH. I have not been able to find any connection to BARR in my searches. All the brothers and sisters have followed maiden names of mother, yet for some reason we have two generations of respect for BARR avoiding the mothers maiden name (confirmed birth son to SMITH).
There was gossip that way back our side was wealthy and orphaned and a family friend or cousin took control of the estate and kids and left them astray taking the estate for themselves. What an exciting story if I was able to find any truth to it. I've already learned some interesting things along the way. Research is like a drug.

[LesleyB]

This looks like the 1881 census entry mentioned above:

Address: 3 Rishton St
Everton, Lancashire, England

Thos Hamilton Head M 37 Scotland, Railway Porter
Marion Hamilton Wife F 33 Scotland
Elizabeth Hamilton Daughter F 2 Liverpool, Lancashire, England
William S Hamilton Son M 0

Since we now know they were married in England, that explains why there would be no mothers' names mentioned. Had they married in Scotland, the mothers' names would have been on the marriage document, which would have been more of a help.

[nelmit]

I like this family (all born Hamilton) at 7 Miller St, Hamilton in 1871 -

William Smith 63 Lace Mounfactor (manufacturer ?)
Margaret Smith 52
Marion Smith 23
William Smith 19
James Dunlop 51

My favourite for Thomas is the one born at Strathaven but there are so many I feel your frustration.

Was Thomas a bachelor or widower when he married Marion?

I see a Thomas Hamilton in Lancashire in 1871 who is a widower born Hamilton in the same household as a William Smith.

Regards,
Annette

[hamilton604]

Thomas was a bachelor when married.
The family did not live with them in England; however, both fathers attended the marriage. There were witnesses: William And Catherine Taylor, but not sure if they would be friends or church witnesses. You would think the mothers would be witness if was family. Does anyone know for "condition" section on an England marriage cert, what a female answer sounding like: spaistas? (Spelling)Would really say? Another clue: residence at time of marriage for Thomas is : Heury D? (Can't read spelling) and for Marion: Balia Ann D? (Spelling). If I was able to understand the writers letters, I could research the areas and perhaps locate the connection/move from Scotland.

[WilmaM]

Does anyone know for "condition" section on an England marriage cert, what a female answer sounding like: spaistas? (Spelling)Would really say?

I would think, like in Scotland, it would be Spinster.

[hamilton604]

Annette, thank you. Those dates, names and occupation line up nicely. I will need to research that Marion's death cert and family info to see if it's her. Too many times I had things line up to find out there's a lot of same names and dates similar persons making this a challenging adventure.

[ninatoo]

Hi Hamilton604,

You said Thomas was a bachelor when married. I have come across quite a few marriages where the bride or groom has neglected to state that they were a widow/widower. So though Thomas might have stated it, it might not be the exact truth. People lied about all sorts of things back then. For that matter he might not have been born in 1844, you only have his word for that too at the moment. He may have reduced his age to be close in age to his bride, for example.

Oh, tricky ancestors!

Nina