SP viewed images

[Hil]

I have been on SP for the past 2 days saving all my viewed images to my computer, as suggested by someone in another post, I only have 6 pages to go
It seems to me there are a lot of wasted images & money. I have paid for quite a few images that turned out to not be my family. Plus even the pages that have my relatives on them have other unrelated people as well, for instance a page of births has about 3 other babies registered around the same time, marriages & deaths are the same.
Is there any easy way to list these somewhere so others can have access to them? Should I type them all out & post them to a BMD exchange, it would be a big job but I hate to think of someone missing info or having to pay for it again when I've already done that.
Look forward to your ideas
Hil

[DavidWW]

Hi Hil

You need to be very careful about what you do with the images as you will find somewhere on the SP site a Crown Copyright statement which states that they are for your personal use only. Although the information itself may be way out of copyright, the expression of the information in the form of the GROS digitised image is copyright, held by the Stationery Office.

From that same aspect, however, as long as you extract the information and present it in your own format, I believe that that is not a breach of any copyright. If you then want to send your own extracts to a BMD exchange, I believe that you are free to do so.

David

[Hil]

thankyou david, I hadn't thought of that but I probably didn't write it out clearly enough anyway.
I didn't mean that I would post the actual images, maybe create a spreadsheet or something, or just list individual names & dates etc.
It seems like a lot of work, but I know how much I've learnt from just one name or date & I'd hate to think of anyone missing out on a whole branch of their tree if I am sitting on the information

[DavidWW]

......snipped...........I didn't mean that I would post the actual images, maybe create a spreadsheet or something, or just list individual names & dates etc. ......snipped ................

Hi Hil

I didn't think that you did, but considered it a good idea to make the situation clear for everyone reading the thread , as there's a great deal of confusion and misunderstanding regarding Crown Copyright in such situations.

In theory, everytime I use a GROS image in an article I need to seek permission from GROS/The Stationery Office, and, in fact, that was the procedure the first couple of times. In practice, as long as I stick to the 100, 75 and 50 year closure periods for BMD, - this is the Stationery Office guideline in terms of their policy on possible privacy issues in relation to living people, - and ensure that there is a "This image is used by kind permission of etc., etc." statement, I'm OK.

It's not always an obviously logical area in the sense that if I use transcribed information from an image inside those closure dates, I'm not obliged to seek any permission or thank anyone!

Whatever might be my personal opinions, these are the "rules of the game" and I'm not in a position to change them

David

[Hil]

so.............any ideas???
maybe this is as good a time as any for me to look at creating a web page.
My IP allows a simple one to be made as part of my subscription, at least then people might be able to pick common names up on a search.
Don't really know how all that works but might look into it in the next few days.
Hil

[DavidWW]

so.............any ideas???
maybe this is as good a time as any for me to look at creating a web page.
My IP allows a simple one to be made as part of my subscription, at least then people might be able to pick common names up on a search.
Don't really know how all that works but might look into it in the next few days.
Hil

Hi Hil

A personal webpage is certainly a possibility. For the widest possible coverage, however, seeking out a BMD exchange might be better; but you need to satisfy yourself concerning how such BMD exchanges treat Crown Copyright. I know of one such recent situation where GROS/Stationery Office were seeking legal advice prior to likely action due to the use of GROS images rather than transcripts.

David

[CatrionaL]

Hi Hil

I read your post with interest. I've frequently had the same thoughts about the volume of information collected and which is of no use to me. I had thought of a spread sheet, kept on hand so that I can have a quick peek at my list of names to see if they correspond with names on TS posts. So far I've been too busy ........or too lazy. Take your choice.

Will be interested to know if you take this further.

Thanks, David, for the timely reminder about copyright.

All the best
Catriona

[Hil]

hi Catriona,
glad someone else has thought about all this info going to waste. I hate to think that someone else has seen my rellies info & then done nothing with it coz it's not relevant to their family.

This may be more of a question for davidww & I may be a bit dim (have been known to be that way after a few beers) but if I pay for an image & then tell someone the names & dates, am I not allowed to send them a copy of the image?? is that covered by copyright?? does it mean I can't send copies to my cousins etc??
Thanks guys
Hil

[DavidWW]

.....snipped........This may be more of a question for davidww & I may be a bit dim (have been known to be that way after a few beers) but if I pay for an image & then tell someone the names & dates, am I not allowed to send them a copy of the image?? is that covered by copyright?? does it mean I can't send copies to my cousins etc??
Thanks guys
Hil

Very strictly speaking, no, you shouldn't be sharing the image with anyone, as it's the image, not the info that it contains that is copyrighted, but limited such use within a family is unlikely to bring the wrath of The Stationery Office down upon you, - after all this is not going to be advertised to the world, nor are your cousins going to inform on you

The aspect which most often leads to confusion here is that it's not a question of copyright of the information, but the manner in which that information is expressed. If you or I extract that information and express it in a different format and context then the you or I hold the copyright in that different presentation or "expression" of the information.

What does upset The Stationery Office is when someone directly or indirectly offers the image to the whole wide world

There is one aspect in there to be wary of, and that is if you end up producing a book on the family and selling copies to cover the production costs, - it's far from unknown for several 100 copies to end up being sold.

In that case use of GROS images is inadvisable, - much better to make up a form yourself, which can look quite similar to the "real" one and transcribe the details into it (Hey!, - marketing opperchancity, here, I wonder?, - could I sell my own Word forms )

In passing, has anyone out there ever produced a family book and sold it to family members on a non-profit basis, and sought permission from GROS/TSO to use GROS images?

I was going to add an anology above but the sentence would have got complicated. As a genealogical analogy, imagine that you buy a CD with data of interest for £20, and then think, hey, my cousins could be interested in this, I'll just send them copies................

OK, the scale here is different, - in this case we're talking 50p for a photocopy from an NRH visit, or 6 credits if obtained from SP, in terms of sterling, £1.20 , allowing for a simple search, but is the scale that different as the values soon mount up if a good number of images are involved?

To use a very hackneyed phrase, at the end of the day, in my opinion, it all comes down to one of the most difficult questions I know of "How to define what is reasonable?".

Personally I see nothing wrong with reasonable use among family members, and one get out is to get them to contribute financially to the research, - it need only be a nominal amount, - but then they are joint owners of the images.

The big problem is publicly advertising the availability of images, spare or otherwise, for free, and there are discussion groups who actively encourage the practice of members listing names of "spare" certificates, and sending the images to anyone expressing interest.

Whether or not there should be such a thing as Crown Copyright in such a situation is not what I'm adressing here, - that's a totally different debate.

As far as GROS is concerned it should be remembered that the project that has ended up in all these Scottish digitised images, DIGROS, and which has made many of them available on-line for reasonable cost, has been self funding from the beginning and has relied and continues to rely on the associated income.

Without wishing to sound cynical it will be interesting to see what closer attention is paid to sites/DGs offering free exchange of Crown Copyright images when the much larger number of English and Welsh images become available on line ............ k

Wow Have I gone a bit, or what, but then it's a subject in which I'm very interested and on which I have a great deal of expertise

David

PS

Buried deep within the SP site are the following ...........

What can I do with these images?

Copyright

You can download them to your own computer, save them to disc and print them off. Provided it is for your own personal use [[DWW comment, - how is "personal use" defined?]] you are free to do what you like with them. For further information please see our Copyright Statement

Remember that you also have permanent access to your images online. There is no time limit on their availability.


Copyright Statement

Birth, Death, Marriage and Census records

General Register Office for Scotland indexes and digital images are Crown copyright value-added data and are reproduced with the permission of the Queen's Printer for Scotland.

Wills and Testaments

The wills and testaments index, images and all related website content are the copyright of Scottish Archive Network Limited.

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The ScotlandsPeople logo and strapline are registered trademarks.

PERMITTED USE

Birth, Death, Marriage and Census records/Wills and Testaments/Logo Visitors to this website are granted permission to access this material, to download and copy such material on to electronic, magnetic, optical or similar storage media and to make printed copies of any such downloaded material, provided that such activities and copies are for non-commercial private study and research only. [[DWW comment - I could make a good case for distribution to family members, especially if they have contributed to the research costs, being defined as "non-commercial private study and research" !!]]

RESTRICTED USE

Birth, Death, Marriage and Census records

Visitors to this website may not copy, distribute, sell or publish any of the Crown copyright material downloaded or copies from this website. For the avoidance of doubt, no permission is given for the transfer of any of this material to an open internet site [[Various DGs please note ]]. Such use of the material requires the formal permission of the Queen's Printer for Scotland. This can be done via the Office of Public Sector Information website: (see Click-Use Licensing and Value Added Licence Information).

Wills and Testaments

You may not (a) store or print out copies of them (or any part of them) other than for the permitted use purposes set out above; or (b) reproduce, copy or transmit them (or any part of them) in any other way for any purpose or in any other medium, without prior written permission from the Scottish Archive Network :

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[joette]

Just to put my two bobs worth in. Sometimes viewing other entries can open up avenues you werent aware off. This has happened to me on two occasions.Once for my own Family & when viewing my Grandparents Marriage entry realised that the entry below was the second marriage of my Aunts Grandfather-our families are fairly convoluted but this was the marriages of my paternal Grandparents where the wife went on to become the step-mother- in-law of the Granddaughter of the groom in the entry(told you we were a convoluted lot) below.So saved my Aunt a bit of time if she ever catches the bug. Also I am a nosey------- so seeing othet peoples info always intrigues me & has often sent me off looking in other peoples families