Margaret Malcolm/Reid who are you really??.....

[Julie Tyrell]

I have been tracing decendants of the Andrew Kirkland (b1883) his parents are recorded as John Kirkland and Margaret Malcolm.


It is Margaret that I am now interested in.

John Kirkland and Margaret Malcolm married in 7/2/1868 in Irvine; Margarets parents are recored as James Malcolm and Mary Brown. This all seems quite striaght forward, however...

As per the 1881 census

John Kirkland (Head) age 33 - Coal miner
Margaret Kirkland (Wife) age 32
David Kirkland (son) age 10
John Kirkland (son) age 3
Mary Kirkland (son) age 5
Thomas Kirkland (son) age 8mths
William Kirkland (son) age 7

(more children were born later -11)

On futher investigation of the children's birth records Margaret's name changes from either Margaret Malcolm to Margaret Reid i.e.

David (middle name Reid), Mary and William's parents are recorded as John and Margaret Kirkland (MALCOLM) married 7/2/1868

John and Thomas's parents are recorded as John and Margaret Kirkland (REID) married 7/2/1868

On her husbands death certificate she is recorded as widower Margaret Reid on her own death certificate she is Margaret Malcolm.

I can not find a record of her parents John Malcolm to Mary Brown marrigae, or Margaret Reid or Malcolm on any census prior to her marriage, she was born 1849/50 in Irvine. Nor a birth record for her.


This is very confusing. Anybody got any thoughts?




David (middle name Reid), Mary and William's parents are recorded as John and Margaret Kirkland (MALCOLM) married 7/2/1868

John and Thomas's parents are recorded as John and Margaret Kirkland (REID)
married 7/2/1868

Why would the mother's maiden name be different?? Very confusing. Anybody got any thoughts?

[LesleyB]

Hi Julie
Without knowing much about the family, several possibilities spring to mind:

1. Margaret's father died when she was young, her mother remairred and she took on the step-fathers surname, but sometimes reverted to her first surname?

2. Margaret had been married prior to marrying John Kirkland and this causes confusion with surnames?

3. Margaret was illegitimate and was known both by her birth father's name and a surname she took on after her mother married someone else?

4. Who registered the children's births? If it wasn't Margaret there is a possibility that whoever did was muddling surnames?

5. If it was Margaret who registered the births, well... I don't know!

Of course, it may be none of the above!!
Best wishes
Lesley

[JustJean]

Hello all

With wee David having the middle name of Reid I went looking for a David Reid that might have once been married in to the family. There is a DC for:

1884 BROWN MARY REID F 75 IRVINE /AYR 595/00 0141

that surely looked interesting enough to view. She was the widow of David Reid coal miner. I wonder if this is the mother of your Margaret Malcolm?? I guess this means I'm leaning towards Lesley's #3!!!

Since Margaret's birth was before statutory registration it is very possible it just never got recorded.

So tell us now....are we making progress or only further confusing things??

Later edit.....I'll answer my own question! A further search based on the informant name given on Mary Brown's DC proves that she and hubbie David Reid were having babies well before wee Margaret was thought of. Sooooo.....perhaps Lesley's #3 needs to be reversed ....and based on this knowledge....a look in the 1851 census of Irvine for the Reid family shows a likely wee Margaret aged 9 mos....and a host of siblings....and a widowed mom named Mary.

Best wishes
Jean

[Julie Tyrell]

Thanks Jean and Lesley

I feel that Margaret is illegimate. Having previously only traced my English ancestors I did not know when compulsory registration came into force. When did this come into force? Did people abide by it? I have so many missing ancestors - very fustrating!

Question: I have an possible illegimate child whose birth I can not find, in your experiences are children 'told' their age to same a parents later embarrassement. For example, if the mother married another man (not the child's father) so she didnt look like she had a child so young.

Margaret (on the censuses) has her birth town as Irvine, I found a John Malcolm (age 22) living their on the 1851 census. That could be the father.

Another question, is there a way of finding 'death records' before 1855 - online??

I will differently look into Lesleys find, thank you all so much.

Thanks

[JustJean]

Hi Julie

See my later edit added to above post. No death's online before 1855 and even the OPR ones that are extant will probably not turn up your David Reid. They might...but then again they might not!

I think you've probably found the true father of Margaret!

Best wishes
Jean

[LesleyB]

Hi Julie
Statutory Registration was introduced in Scotland in 1855. Prior to that we are reliant on the OPRs.
http://www.talkingscot.com/rds/rds-intro.htm
Although this is later than in England, it is unusual, though not impossible, that an event is not registered after 1855.

Most Parishes recorded births pre 1855, but some were recorded more carefully than others and some have survived intact and some have not.
Some parishes did record deaths, burials or mortcloth hire which gives an indication of the date of death, but many did not. An element of luck comes into it!

Just thought of another angle to possibility no 3...
3. Margaret was illegitimate and was known both by her birth father's name and a surname she took on after her mother married someone else? Or she was registered with her fahter's name but was also known by her mother's surname?

Best wishes
Lesley

[Julie Tyrell]

Thanks for that information Lesley

I just had a look at the marriage of Mary Brown to David Reid in 1832, which could be a possibility.

On the 1851
Mary is a widow with several children and a Margaret aged 9mths.

I am not 100% sure of Margarets year of birth - this census would imply 1850, her death record suggests 1848 and she married at 19 in 1868 so 1848/9 but the 1871 census has her as 21 making 1850'ish.

If this 1851 census is her, then another mystery starts as the 1861 census has her mother 'widow' as a housekeeper with NO children at all. Where have they gone.

If Mary is the widow of David she may have married again but once again I can't find a record - arrrhhhh. So where does James Donaldson come into it (sorry I could him John earlier).

It is never simple - hahaha

[JustJean]

....snipped......

If this 1851 census is her, then another mystery starts as the 1861 census has her mother 'widow' as a housekeeper with NO children at all. Where have they gone.

Have you searched for the children to living elsewhere and working? Also don't discount that some may have died..always wise to check for deaths. Besides you already know that older daughter Elizabeth was married in 1858 to Robert Young so some other's may also be married.

If Mary is the widow of David she may have married again but once again I can't find a record - arrrhhhh. So where does James Donaldson come into it (sorry I could him John earlier).

It is never simple - hahaha

Who is James Donaldson?? I thought wee Margaret named her daddy as James Malcolm? Now I'm getting confused

Best wishes
Jean

[Julie Tyrell]

Sorry it is James Malcolm

[Caroline]

Hi Julie,

This looks like Mary Reid in the 1881 census

Dwelling: 75 High St
Census Place: Irvine, Ayr, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0203599 GRO Ref Volume 595 EnumDist 1 Page 31
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
Mary B. REID W 70 F Irvine, Ayr, Scotland
Rel: Head
Occ: Pauper
Mary REID U 16 F Irvine, Ayr, Scotland
Rel: Grand Daur
Occ: Does House Work


The younger Mary appears be the illegitimate daughter of Marys daughter Agnes and her other daughter Elizabeth is living a few doors away with her family.


Caroline