HELP! DO I HAVE THE RIGHT FAMILY? .....

[sheilajim]

Hi Everyone

I would like some opinions on my confusing McDonalds.

I have never found, to my satisfaction, any census with my ancestor John Dunn McDonald 1, and his wife Margaret Kay, although he died in Fife County 1870 and she died in Stirling in 1862. The informant at her death was her son-in-law, Robert Scott. John Dunn McDonald was born in 1799 in Fintry. I haven't been able to find a record of Margaret Kay's birth.

They were married in Denny, Stirlingshire in 1822. SP lists only two children: Margaret Watson McDonald, born 1824 in Denny, and John Dunn McDonald 11, born 1831 in Denny. This date of 1831 makes him quite a few years older than all the other dates listed for John Dunn McDonald 11.

However the IGI lists another John Dunn McDonald born 1834, also in Denny, and a William McDonald born 1838 to a John McDonald and Margaret Kay in Clackmannan. These other births were a submission by an LDS member.

When the 1851 Census came out I looked in Stirlingshire for the family, and couldn't find anything. When the 1841 census came out, I eagerly looked for them in Stirlingshire, and still couldn't find the family, even though I went through every known person.
Then I noticed that daughter Margaret had married a Robert Scott in Tillicoultry in 1844.

I looked for the then 16 yr old Margaret in Tillicoultry, Clackmannen in the 1841 census, and found one that fit, listed alongside a John McDonald age 40, another John McDonald, age 5, and with two more apparent brothers, Archibald 15, and James 7. The makeup of this family was just like the makeup of an 1881 census for John D. McDonald 11, only missing a Christina. There was no William listed. There was also no listing of Mother Margaret. This listing was on Page 10. The address looks like U.S. OF T. (whatever that means).

I then looked up Mother Margaret under her maiden name-Margaret Key, in Tillicoultry, and found a Margaret Key, age 35, on Page 11.
Could this be her? The address on this is impossible for me to make out.
Also on Page 11, there is a Robert Scott, age 23, apparently married to an Elizabeth, with a 1 yr old son Walter.
Could this be daughter Margaret's future husband?

Could some of you good people give me your opinion on this? Have I finally found my family, or am I on the wrong track?

On the 1851 Census for Tillicoultry, I have found a 16yr old John McDonald and a Margaret McDonald 45, but of course there is no image.

[JustJean]

Hello Sheila

First things first....from the BIVRI disks we pick up one more birth...but it does puzzle me k

MCDONALD, Margaret Watson Christening
Gender: Female
Birth Date: 4 Mar 1824 Christening Date: 4 Apr 1824 Recorded in: Denny, Stirlingshire, Scotland
Father: John MCDONALD
Mother: Margaret KAY
Source: FHL Film 1041975 Dates: 1679 - 1855

MCDONALD, James Christening
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 11 Sep 1831 Christening Date: 13 Nov 1831 Recorded in: Denny, Stirlingshire, Scotland
Father: John MCDONALD
Mother: Mary KEY
Source: FHL Film 1041975 Dates: 1679 - 1855

MCDONALD, John Dunn Christening
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 7 Aug 1831
Christening Date: 31 Aug 1831 Recorded in: Denny, Stirlingshire, Scotland
Father: John MCDONALD
Mother: Margaret KEY
Source: FHL Film 1041975 Dates: 1679 - 1855

I do believe these were all children of the same couple even though Margaret is as Mary. The names of birth when compared with your 1841 census findings make James fit very nicely. The dates are another story !

Here is my theory...

1822 John and Margaret (Mary) marry in Denny
1824 Margaret Watson McDonald is born in Denny
1826 approx Archibald McDonald is born in Denny
1831 John Dunn McDonald is born in Denny
1834 James McDonald is born in Denny
1836 John Dunn McDonald is born in Denny
1838 perhaps a William McDonald was born in Clackmannan

I think the first John died and a second one was given the same name. A birth about 1836 will fit with the age in 1841 of John and also his ages in later years. I also think that the IGI dates for James have been misread. Can't prove this without actually renting in the film and trawling throught the OPR's though!!!! This would be the first thing I'd be checking on!!!! If there ever was a William and if he died before 1841 you may never know. It might be interesting (if possible) to discover who submitted the information to the LDS?

Have you attempted to find Archibald or John or James in later years?...or marriages for them just to prove they have the right parents?

From the sound of your 1851 census findings it is very tempting to say those 2 people are yours!! Perhaps the only way to view them is to order in the census film at your Family History Library?? What was the age of Margaret Key at her death in 1862? Does it fit with the 1851 census index age?

I realize there are not many answers here. Maybe someone else will have some better input!

Best wishes
Jean

[sheilajim]

Hi Jean

Thanks for your help. You helped me before with this family, showing me how to find the marriage of John Dunn McDonald II.
I agree with your theory. Those birth dates are strange. Twins do run in this family, but not born months apart!

I hadn't realized that the names of Margaret & Mary could be interchangeable.
On Margaret Key McDonald's death cert., her parents are listed as William Kay and what I thought was Mary Watson. Yet her apparent first born daughter was named Margaret Watson McDonald. I didn't think to look for the birth of Margaret Kay, with a mother called Margaret.

I wasn't satisfied with the Margaret Kay in the 1841 census for Tillicoultry, so I looked for a Margaret McDonald in Denny. This time, I think that I have found the right one. In the 1841 Census for Denny is a Margaret McDonald,age 35 (rounding down), with a 2 mos old baby called Christina, apparently living, or visiting with a William Kay, age 70 and his wife Margaret, age 65, also there, were, I assume, their daughters Elizabeth, 25 and Catherine, 30.

With this information I went to Family Search and found the birth of Margaret Kay, parents William Kay and Margaret Watson in 1801.


I had assumed that the McDonalds were Roman Catholic. John Dunn McDonald II, certainly was, but whether his parents were also RC, or if he converted when he married, is something that I don't know yet.

Now I have to search for info on all these brothers, sisters, etc of Margaret Kay, and also her newfound (at least to me) sons.

Thanks again Jean

Sheila

P.S. Talking Scot was down for an hour or so.

[JustJean]

Hi Sheila

Looks like you're making good headway again. Good to hear

As for the website being down...ummm..yup.... knew that. It was outwith the control of our Admin. Things are back to normal now though!!

Best wishes
Jean

[sheilajim]

Hi Jean

Your theory seems to be right on. I found the whole family on the 1851 Census. They were living in Dumferline, Fife.
Archibald was born in either 1826 or 1827. James was born 1831, John Dunn, in 1836. The Christina that was born in 1841 must have died, because there is another one called Christian born in 1844. They are all born in Denny. Margaret was married by this time.

I am now in the process of tracing Archibald.

The reason that it took me so long to find them is that the person who wrote the names on the census decided to abbreviate the name John to Jn

I found more shocking things on the 1861 census, but I will put it on another post.

Thank you

Sheila

[JustJean]

Hi Sheila

Well that's great news! I'm afraid 6+ months down the road and goodness knows how much water under the bridge I don't even recall giving this post a reply Good thing you've never given up....not sure I could come up with the same answer twice

I look forward to hearing more exiciting results....so will go look for another posting.

Best wishes
Jean

[joette]

Just to put my two Bobs worth in.
"I agree with your theory. Those birth dates are strange. Twins do run in this family, but not born months apart!"
It is unusual but not all that to have twins who are born weeks apart.I knew a pair with one being born in Nov& his sister born in Jan.(about 7weeks apart)I also know twins born three weeks apart.
Having said that it probably is a mistranscription but I NEVER ASSUME anything anymore!

[emanday]

Twins seem to be a feature of both side of my family. In fact, my mother was a twin, but only older than her brother by 10 minutes.

However, family lore tells of a pair of twins being born 3 weeks apart. My problem is that, although I'm sure it was on my paternal grandmother's side, I can't remember which line it was on and still haven't come across them. Knowing my luck, they'll be one of the Irish rellies

Got to say, with our family history of twins, we have always regarded it as a minor miracle that neither myself nor my brother and sister produced twins.

[sheilajim]

Hi All

Jean, you have been a big help, but it took me six months to track that family down. I don't think that I could ever have found them if Ancestry.Uk hadn't put the Scottish Census Online. I trolled through many McDonalds till I found the right ones. Can you imagine what that would have cost on SP.

As for the twins, I think that James was a twin, the other a brother called John, who probably died as a baby. When another son was born later, they used the name John again. Whether they were born weeks apart, or this is just some mixup with the recorder, is something that I will probably never know.

One of the ironies of Genealogical Research, is that I have had success with such a common name as McDonald, and very little, with a relatively uncommon name as Morn/Morran/Morin.


Regards to All

Sheila