Getting the right certificate for a Death at Sea

Allison · Post by **Allison** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 11:20 pm

Good afternoon everyone!
Due to some research by a couple of kind-hearted people on this list, I wrote the Ministry to get a certificate for William Brown who was declared to have died at sea on the Horatio around 1888. I provided the Ministry with all the details that I had: resident in Greenock, Scotland, approximate age of 42, together with the ship's name and date of approximate death--hoping that this would be sufficient. I actually went onto 1837 Online and thought I had narrowed it down to a William Brown, aged 46, on the Horatio on page 162 and provided that as well.

Unfortunately the certificate sent to me bears no resemblance to the details I had provided. I received a certificate for a William Brown, aged 36, from Spence, 130 Broomielaw, nationality: Stettia (wherever that is).javascript:emoticon(':(')
Sad

Not being able to see the certificate on line, I'm now wondering how I ascertain if I have the right person before I try ordering a certificate. The Mitchell Library is a very long way from Canada and I won't be anywhere near there in the near future.

Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

Allison
(where it is hot and 30C on my front deck!)
Northern Ontario, Canada[/img]

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:52 am

Hi Allison
I don't know if this is much help, and there are folk far more aquainted with the west coast on here than I am, but Broomielaw rings a bell:
http://www.glasgow.gov.uk/en/Residents/ ... istory.htm
- being in the harbour area of Glasgow. There may of course be more than one Broomielaw...

I wonder too if the "Stettia" is Scottia? Scots? even or something similar? Just a long shot without seeing the writing... so I'm maybe havering

Best wishes
Lesley

Allison · Post by **Allison** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:08 am

Hello Lesley!
The certificate looks to have been written in modern day hand-writing so I haven't been able to see the original. Wish I could but . . .

In the meantime, thank you for the link. I'll check it out. Seems odd that while my great-grandfather was resident in Greenock that he would have been shown as a resident of Broomeliau when the "poor relief application" shows my great-grandmother's previous addresses and none of them are in Glasgow. I'll keep searching. Hopefully something will come up to explain the difference.

Allison

Alcluith · Post by **Alcluith** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 9:38 am

Allison,

It's unlikely to be Broomielaw if he stayed in Greenock, unless he gave the wrong details (not unknown). Did the ship sink or was it just him who died?

The Mitchell may have his records if you post all the details or send me a PM with them I will have a look the next time I am in or maybe some other kind sole will have a look for you if they are there before me.

Allison · Post by **Allison** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:13 pm

The information I have is that the Horatio was lost at sea (don't know where). William Brown was approximately 46 years of age, living in Greenock. 1837 Online shows a 46 year old William Brown on the Horatio listed in the 1888 marine deaths on Page 162. William told his wife, Elizabeth, as well as a census taker that he was originally from Jamaica but other sources state he was Scottish.

I don't know if that is of any help, but if it helps to narrow down the search for anyone who might be going to the Mitchell and willing to do a quick search while they are doing their own research. javascript:emoticon('[-o<')
Pray

Allison

grannysrock · Post by **grannysrock** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 11:24 pm

Hi Allison

I don't know if you have these already : here are some bits from the Scotsman ( ww.scotsman.com) and the Times:

The Scotsman - Monday, 17th September 1888, page 7

A DISABLED STEAMER—Mr Taylor; coal merchant, Dundee, received information on Saturday of the arrival of his steamer, Ethel Gwendoline, at Aberdeen, with the disabled steamer Horatio, of Maryport in tow. The latter was on a voyage from Hamburg to Greenock with sugar when she became disabled by the breakage of her propellor.The Ethel Gwendoline found her drifting about in a helpless state, aod for £500 an agreement was made to tow the vessel into Aberdeen.

17th November The Times ( From Lloyds)
WRECKS AND CASUALTIES :
...
The Horatio, a British steamer has gone ashore at Texel, and remains.

19th November The Times ( From Lloyds)
WRECKS AND CASUALTIES :
...
A Telegram from Amsterdam states that the Horatio, steamer, is expected to become a total wreck. Crew landed at Texel.

The Scotsman - Friday, 23rd November 1888, page 5

STEAMER HORATIO. The wreck of the steamer Horatio, which traded between Hamburg and Greenock, has now, it is feared, been attended with the loss of some of the crew,a number of whom belonged to Greenock. The list of those missing are—Captain Brough, Maryport;
Daniel Brough, boatswain, Maryport; McKenzie, chief engineer.Greenock ; Jeremiah Aitkens, second engineer, Greenock ; William McKenzie, donkeyman, Greenock; William Walker, fireman, Greenock; John Rennie, fireman, Greenock ; William Brown, A.B., Greenock; and William Allan, A.B., Greenock. The worst fears have been intimated to the relatives of the missing Greenock men by Captain Brotchie, of the Seamen's Home.

Texel is an island off the Netherlands ( I think !!) , so looks like the Horatio got its propellor repaired ... assuming its the same steamer Horatio.

I guess there would be more in the Greenock papers.

Sally

Allison · Post by **Allison** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 11:56 pm

Good evening Sally!
Thanks for the newspaper information. I'm not familiar with the newspapers sources you have used so have read them with great interest. In fact, I didn't even know you could search the papers on-line. Could you tell me more in a private e-mail as to how one goes about this?

I'm not sure whether the Greenock papers would have more--I looked a year ago through the Greenock library and found the one liner death announcement (courtesy of someone on this forum). I'm not sure if it is the right William Brown (there are a couple) but I'll have to see what I can find.

Thank you again for your research. I very much appreciate it.

Allison
Sudbury, Ontario, Canada

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:31 am

Hi Allison
As far as I'm aware there is only one Scots newspaper currently online:
The Scotsman Digial Archive
http://archive.scotsman.com/

Searching the Archive is free - although you must purchase a subscription to view the articles in full. Cheapest is a 24 Hour Pass which costs £7.95
Sally mentions two references to the Horatio in The Scotsman, above.

The Times, a London newspaper, also has a digital archive. As far as I'm aware you can't take out a short-term subscription to this (well you couldn't last time I looked!)

Best wishes
Lesley

grannysrock · Post by **grannysrock** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 6:21 pm

Allison , Lesley

Sorry for the delay, my daughter 'needed' the PC last night.
The Times Digital Archive only offers institutional subscriptions - perhaps there's a subscribing libary near you ? Some libraries also offer remote access to the Times Archive to their members .

Being curious - does the date of death on the certificate you received match up with the newspaper dates ?

Sally