Question for Hugh

Kathy · Post by **Kathy** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:53 pm

Hi Hugh,

You seem to know quite a lot regarding the Navy/Merchant Navy, could you help me out with the following, please.

Mitchell Orr McNeill b1913 served in the mid 1930's in the Navy, I have a pic of him in uniform with HMS Wrestler on his cap.

From what I can recall being told, he was considered essential services, as he was a Rivitter (journeyman) on the Clyde, and from the onset of WW11 was transferred to the Merchant Navy.

I have been unable to locate any record. Navy or Merchant Navy.

Would he have been considered still Navy personell during his time in the Merchant Navy? I understand he was discharged about 1946.

Can you tell me if there is anywhere on the web I can research this information, I have already tried searching the name on the National Archives website without success.

Kathy

Hugh Stevely · Post by **Hugh Stevely** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 4:20 pm

Hi Kathy,

Ok lets see if we can find out any thing for you. HMS Wrestler on his cap he was Royal Navy. is this his ship?

H.M.S. Wrestler.

http://hmsasphodel.co.uk/wrestler.htm

Will try and see if i can find any info for you have you seen this link.

http://www.mariners-l.co.uk/UK20thCSeamen.html

Kathy i had a look for him but no Luck
Dont know wether you have seen this site re HMS Wrestler:
http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/l ... 20Wrestler
Page down, Shows a crew picture 1939/40, not sure how much you can enlarge it.

Also i have done a quick search on Nat Archives. No Luck
If you have is correct date of birth search using that only, or try his place of birth only. Could have been mis-input

Hugh.

Kathy · Post by **Kathy** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 11:50 pm

Hi Hugh,

I have previously been to those websites, and also tried to enlarge the pic from 1939/1940 but no luck it distorts. HMS Wrestler was mined in 1944.

The birth/place is 22.02.1913 Port Glasgow.

I was thinking if he had been considered essential services, he would probably been transferred to the Merchant Navy early in 1939.

Do you think his service in the Merchant Navy would have been considered continuance of Royal Navy service? was there a minimum service period, I estimate the full Navy service would have been 1936 - 1946.

Kathy

Hugh Stevely · Post by **Hugh Stevely** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 8:52 am

Hi kathy.

I am not sure his service in the Merchant Navy would have been considered continuance of Royal Navy service will see what i can find out for you.

His records if they have survived will be in one of the following BT files at The National Archives, depending on what year he left the MN.

Altough the Fourth Register runs from 1913 to 1940, all records from 1913 t0 1918 were destroyed in the blitz in WWII

1913 to 1940 Fourth Register of Merchant Seaman's service.

These records are available at the TNA and are held on Microfiche in the following classifications BT 348: Register of Seamen, Central Index, Numerical Series (CR 2), BT 349: Register of Seamen, Central Index, Alphabetical Series (CR 1) and BT 350: Register of Seamen, Special Index, Alphabetical Series (CR 10). These three classes were combined in one classification namely BT 364 Register of Seaman, Combined Numerical Index (CR1, CR 2 & CR 10) and were made up by extracting combinations of cards from the other three classes.

BT 382. The Fifth Register of Seaman’s Service 1941 to 1972.

Records of individual Merchant Seamen's sea service details are held in alphabetical surname order. These details include the following information: Name of seaman, Date and place of birth, Discharge (Seaman’s) book number, Rank, Details of the ships on which he served. These include:

Name of ship and official number, date of engagement (Joining ship), Date of discharge (Leaving ship), whether ship was a foreign going of home trade vessel, and records in some cases National Insurance contributions. Details shown in these records are similar to those contained in an individual seaman's discharge book.

If you find his files you can download to your computer using the TNA Digital Express 24 hour service for a cost of £8.50 per 10 documents if his files are in the Fifth Register

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/docu ... ueryType=1

Hugh.

Hugh MacLean · Post by **Hugh MacLean** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:30 am

Hello Kathy,

Just to add to Hugh's reply to you. If indeed he was in the Merchant Navy during the war period his service record CRS10 Form is what you need. As indicated by Hugh, this will be in the Fifth Register of Seamans's Service. His file, if it has survived, could be here in BT382/1150: http://urlx.org/gov.uk/bef40 Should you wish to get this file then hit the link then "Request this" and follow the instructions. You need to be specific though and ask for the CRS10 for Mitchell Orr McNeil born 1913 include also his place of birth. As Hugh has indicated the cost for this will be £8.50 (UK) delivered to your email address within 24 hours on a no find no fee basis....in otherwords if his file is not there or has not survived you will not be charged.

If you go ahead with the link I gave above and it is not successful then it is quite possible that his file is incorrectly filed under Mac instead of Mc.
Let us know how you get on.

Regards
Hugh (MacLean)

Kathy · Post by **Kathy** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 1:29 pm

Thanks Hugh,

I thought I would request a search of BT 382 from the National Archives, but no luck, it wont let me submit the request with that reference number.

Also I have downloaded a form from the Ministry of Defence, I wil send it off, perhaps something will come from it.

Kathy

Kathy · Post by **Kathy** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 1:47 pm

Thanks Hugh (McLean)

I have spent the past few hours on the National Archives website, my head is dizzy looking.

Your addition of the extra numbers 1150 after BT 382 has done the trick, I have now submitted the request, will let you know when I get a reply.

Kathy

Kathy · Post by **Kathy** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:21 pm

After making my request on 2nd July, I promptly received an email giving me a reference number, and that I would be contacted in 10 working days with an estimate of costs.

Still waiting

Kathy

Hugh MacLean · Post by **Hugh MacLean** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 5:40 pm

Hello Kathy,

I think you may have taken the request estimate option rather than the Digital Express, purchase a same day digital copy. If you had done that then you would have had the results in 24 hours for £8.50 emailed to your computer.

If I am correct, I am afraid the request estimate option does take a bit of time I have used it myself and the wait is frustrating...I usually always use the Digital Express option.

Regards
Hugh MacLean

Kathy · Post by **Kathy** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:54 pm

Hi Hugh,

I did take the 'estimate' option, as I have no idea if they have the information I require.

It's been 6 weeks now, their email said 10 working days, how long did you wait?

Kathy